M.O.P.E. – most oppressed people ever. This was a term coined in the 1990s to ridicule Gerry Adams’ claim that the Irish were more ill-treated than any people at any time in history. This extraordinary claim is as dangerous as it is false. It is not just part of a historical debate but a plank of Irish republicanism drive to terrorise and to oppress. Irish republicanism is that mode of thought that supports the IRA, the IRA of whatever faction. Sinn Fein can still be said to be republican even though it does not at the moment advocate terrorism. Despite Fianna Fail’s subtitle (the Republican Party) it is not republican. Yes, it harbours the aspiration for Northern Ireland to be wrested from the UK and to merge into the Irish Republic.
Nov28
The Irish Oppression myth.
Irish nationalism is more moderate that Irish republicanism. Irish nationalism does not necessarily advocate complete separation from Great Britain. Irish nationalism is not of course a monolith and a diversity of views exists within this broad outlook. However, the trope that the connection with Great Britain was bad news is nevertheless the core mythology of the Irish nationalist mindset. Northern Ireland uniting with the Republic is another shibboleth of this viewpoint. The irony is of course is that nationalists and not unionists partitioned Ireland. Nationalists seceded from the UK, it was not that Southern Ireland was expelled from the United Kingdom. No unionists argued for Southern Ireland to be kicked out of the UK. If unionists are all foaming at the mouth anti-Catholics they would have argued for this. Indeed in 1940 and 1941 Eamonn de Valera, the Taoiseach of Eire, was twice publicly offered Irish unity in an independent dominion in return for entering the Allied side in the war. He refused both times. Even unionists were willing to contemplate this. Had de Valera been genuinely eager to end partition then an end to partition was offered to him on a plate.
This is not to say that unpleasant things were done in Ireland and sometimes done by people from our neighbour to the east. Henry VIII for example was cruel and dishonourable. His Maynooth pardon being the killing of all who surrendered to him there. He is estimated to have slain 100 000 people in England. He was a bloody tyrant but he was no worse in Ireland than in England. Where barbarities occurred it was generally due to the epoch and not some anti-Irish stance.
The whole of Ireland was part of the United Kingdom from 1 January 1801 to December 1921. Northern Ireland remain in the UK. Prior to 1801 Ireland was a kingdom that shared the king of Great Britain and before that the King of England. Before 1543 we were a Lordship attached to the Crown of England. We have long had a political connection with Great Britain. By 1921 we lived as co-equal citizens with our brothers and sisters in Wales, Scotland and England. The United Kingdom was one of the freest countries in the world. One had to right to do as one wished, say what one wanted, go where on wanted, to found a political party, to stand for election, to trade, to set up a business, to emigrate if need be. These rights were tempered by the mores of the times. For instance, insulting Christianity is allowed in the UK now but it is not then as the great majority of people would have been against it. The UK was a democracy and very few countries could say that at the time: most of the Western European countries were democracies as was the US and some of the British dominions. Most of Africa, Asia, Latin America and Eastern Europe were at pre-democratic stages in their history with the majority of the populace being totally illiterate.
There were no discriminatory laws in Ireland in 1921. There had been earlier. Until Catholic Emancipation in 1829 there was extensive anti-Catholic discrimination. This was only changed by the Act of Union and a mass campaign to achieve legal equality. An Act to Prevent the Further Growth of Popery was passed by the Irish Parliament in 1704. It contained wide-ranging provisions to treat Roman Catholics unfairly. Roman Catholics required permission to travel abroad, to set up schools, for priests to come into the country. They were forbidden to own a horse worth more than 5 pounds. These laws were totally unfair. The purpose behind them was partly to pressure people into converting to Protestantism. It was also to prevent a Jacobite comeback. Priests were seen, often rightly, as being recruiting sergeants for the Jacobite cause. These anti-Catholic laws were debated, drafted and passed in Ireland by Irishmen. It was one set of Irishmen mistreating the other set. It was Irish Protestants doing this. Yet some would blame the injustices of three hundred years ago on Great Britain in 2010. This is absurd and totally unfair. Yes, the Irish Protestants were mostly descendants from migrants from Great Britain in the 17th and 16th centuries. But this does not mean that they were not Irish. Everyone in Ireland, just about, has an ancestor from Great Britain. Irish republicans claim that the Irish Protestant community could only do this as they had the backing of Great Britain. The Irish Protestants were a minority of perhaps 20% of the people and they were well-armed and highly organised. They dominated in the towns. Dublin in 1700 was about 60% Protestant. This republican claim is probably untrue. If it had come to a fight the Protestant community probably would have won. The Roman Catholic community had lost its leaders in the 1607 Flight of the Earls and after the breaking of the Treaty of Limerick in 1689. In those times most countries were very hierarchical and it was difficult for anyone to be accepted as a doyen who did not hail from the upper orders. Therefore the largely leaderless Roman Catholic community would have found it difficult to sustain a fight against the Protestant community. It is merciful that a religious war was avoided as these tend to be the worst bloodbaths of all. Witness the horrors of the Thirty Years’ War, the French Wars of Religion and the Partition of India. Because there was very little left of the Roman Catholic gentry the priests assumed an even more important role in the community than theretofore. Plus, in rural communities they were often the font of education. Many priests had been educated at seminaries on the Continent and had a broader worldview because of this.
The Act to Prevent the Further Growth of Popery was not much enforced. Scores of Roman Catholic schools flourished and there were plenty priests around.Edmund Burke argued for the abolition of the act on a number of grounds. First the act was so downright unjust. Second, even if one agree with the aim the act had utterly failed to prevent the regeneration of Roman Catholicism.
Never trust the bite of a dog, the kick of an ass and the word of an Englishman.” That was an adage in Ireland. I may have rendered it slightly wrong but the message is plain. It is clearly racist to label the English dishonest, it is little better than saying that we Irishmen are dim. There are ghastly chapters in Irish history. The Potato Famine of the 1840s, the 1798 Rebellion, the English Civil war as it effected Ireland, the Nine years war and so on. There were massacres carried out by Crown Forces such as the murders on Dursey Island. This article in not a whitewash. This article seeks to restore perspective and balance. There were atrocities committed by Roman Catholics as well as by Protestants. They were far more crimes committed by rebels than by the Crown Forces. I speak of sectarian murders from the 1640s up until the present day. The Crown Forces were subject to courts martial and could and were tried for wrongdoing. Rebels seldom to never punished their men for committing atrocities.
”Through the leaden rain seven tongues of flame made perfidious Albion reel.” – this is a line from ”The Foggy Dew”, a song written by a republican minded Roman Catholic priest about the Easter Rising. The use of the opprobrious term ”Perfidious Albion” is plainly racist. It would be equally stupid and bigotted to speak of ”Alcoholic Ireland” or ”Terrorist Ireland.” This language reveals the Anglophobic trope that informs much of republican discourse.
The Potato Famine deserves an article of its own. Put simply, it was a huge and tragic natural disaster. Irish republicans like to exploit this in order to generate odium towards Great Britain and to attempt to justify their crimes today. They wish to posthumously conscript the dead into their cause. Irish republicans like to call this horrendous event ”the Great Hunger”. They claim that one cannot use the word famine when their was an abundance of foodstuffs in the country. George Bernard Shaw in his ”John Bull’s Other Island” made this point. (Shaw is an interesting case in his own right – a study in spite and bigotry. Like many an Irish republican he spat venom at Great Britain which he made his home. He said, ”I would rather be burned at the stake by Irish Catholics than saved by English Protestants.” Even allowing for poetic licence this is still a statement of the most ghastly Anglophobic prejudice. It is in the light of this that his invention of the phrase ”An Gort Mor” must be seen). However, in ”Ulster conflict and Consensus” by Wilson one sees that this is a fallacy. More food was arriving in Ireland than leaving. The food exportation meme is dangerous. It is part of the republican bid to repaint this ghastly event as genocide. Murals in Belfast dub it ”the Irish Holocaust” and falsely inflate the figures of those who died and emigrated.
The old canard is wheeled out that Queen Victoria gave as much to the famine relief appeal as to Battersea Dogs’ Home. The Government organised relief in Ireland but it was inadequate. The relief still proves this was no genocide. Why go through the pretence of feeding people if you want them to die or leave the country? Relief work was started. Many roads in Clare were torn up to be rebuilt as famine relief work. Many railway lines date from this time. Look at Heuston Stattion in Dublin – dated 1846. Famine fever made morbidity worse.
There were famines before this such as in the 1740s. There was a famine in Great Britain also in the 1840s but it was much less severe. The late 1840s was a time of starvation through much of Europe – hence the year of revolutions in 1848. There were no more famines after the 1840s in Ireland. Why was this? The overcrowded districts were eased by emigration and better agricultural methods were used/
Republicans tell lies about the past as they do about the present. They wish to exploit the apolitical victims of this grievous happening so as to make political mileage now. This means of trying to make capital out of the suffering of people long dead is indeed reprehensible. Dishonesty and the abuse of innocent victims if not of course the sole preserve of those of one attitude. ”Dead generations” , said the Proclamation of the Irish Republic in Easter 1916, ”from which she receives her tradition of nationhood.” That is mainly what it is about for Irish republicans – ”the dead.” Theirs is a necrophile discourse. Many Irish republicans had compromised since 1798 and become moderates and constitutionalists. Yet the Irish republican movement always tries to claim the dead as being members of the most fanatical faction of Irish republicanism. This is dishonest and distasteful. It would be equally wrong for loyalists to say that they can never compromise as members of their side died for this and that and that the dead would surely advocate the most obdurate policy and therefore one must adhere to this most obdurate stance. I wonder if even ”President” Pearse himself if he were alive today, seeing the century of suffering and anguish that he brought upon Ireland would not have his heart moved to compassion and ask people to stop the violence. ”The old heart of Europe needs to be warmed with the red wine of battlefields”, he said. Maybe my wish to attribute a modicum of humanity to him was wrong in view of this most bloodthirsty pronouncement. He did not say this in ignorance in time of peace. He said this in the midst of the Great War when such outbursts were made in an informed manner.
There is often a misconception that past insurrections in Ireland were nationalistic in motivation. There were rebellions in Medieval and Early Modern Ireland but mostly they were not nationalist in character. They were often against a particular policy, tax or unpopular official. The same is true of England and Wales at that time. For instance in 1641 the Confederation of Kilkenny revolted against the Protestant settlers. The ”rebels” were ultra-loyal to Charles I. These so-called rebels are then claimed as spiritual forefathers by the republican movement of today when nothing could be further from the truth. It is a very inversion of the reality. The First and Second Desmond rebellions were about anti-Protestantism, anti-migrant feeling and opposition to Elizabeth. If successful they would not have broken with England. Far from it, they would have united more closely as they hoped to make England Roman Catholic again. They hoped that Philip II would rule Ireland, Wales, England his Spanish domains. The Williamite Wars show that most Irish Roman Catholics were loyal to the true king, James II. Yet they are claimed as having been proto-republicans. This is utterly fallacious. The only connection between the Jacobite and the republicans is that most are Roman Catholic. There you have it, sectarianism. The identification with one religious denomination as against the other is what defines Irish republicanism.
Ireland was clannish into the 17th century. Ireland was deeply divided and there were near constant feuds between the different clans just as persisted in Scotland into the late 18th century. People talk of ”divide et impera” – there was no need for the Crown to do this it was already so. There were far more rebellions in 16th century England than in 16th century Ireland. 16th century England witnessed – in no particular order – the revolt against the Amicable Grant, the last stirrings of the Yorkists, the Western Rebellion, the Pilgrimage of Grace, Kett’s rebellion, the Wyatt Plot, the Ridolfi Plot, the Rebellion of the Northern Earls etc… Perhaps part of the reason for this is that there was no so much government to rebel against in Ireland.
Until the 17th century the Irish Crown governed only the eastern part of the country and a few ports effectively. There was a policy of dyarchy rather like in India until 1947. Some territory was under direct royal administration executed by the Lord Deputy. Some territory was governed indirectly by Native Irish chieftains. They had to do homage and pay tribute to the Crown but other than that they ran their own show. The 18th century was remarkably peaceful in Ireland. There were sectarian clashes in the 1790s leading to the 1798 Rebellion. After that there was the odd ruction but on the whole the 19th century was very peaceful, certainly much more so than in most lands. It was only in the 1790s that Irish nationalism emerged as such. Indeed this was about the time that nationalism as we know it was invented full stop. In the 1790s for the first time a body – the United Irishmen – claimed that the common name of Irishman was to replace Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter. Many Roman Catholics did not regard Anglicans and those of the Nonconformist churches as being Irish. Indeed, evidence submitted to the Irish Parliament at this time said that the Irish-speaking peasantry had but one word to describe the English and the Protestants in Ireland ”Sassenach”. This speaks volumes. It explains why the misdeeds of Protestants in Ireland are bogusly blamed on England in particular and more widely on Great Britain. Even then Irish nationalism was a minor sport for some time.
In 1798 it was mainly people in the East who got involved. Yes, there was the landing in Mayo and a revolt in Skibereen. The three religious denominations formed semi-separate communities, Anglican, Dissenters and Roman Catholics.
It is held as axiomatic by many on the liberal left around the world that Irish history has been a tragedy. Jesse Jackson said so again on his recent trip to Ireland. Edward Kennedy used to say it. Our tragedies are mostly anglophobia and sectarianism. These are to a large extent the doing of republicans and to some extent of loyalist terrorists too. Overall, though, we Irishmen do not have a tragic history. Compared to many countries our history has been very happy. Much of the grief in our history has been caused by Irish republicans. At very least, most of us being southern, we missed out on the horrors of the Second World War. Look at these nations – France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Russia, the Ukraine, Romania, Poland, Israel, Palestine, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, Burma, Bangladesh, China, North Korea, South Korea, Australia’s Aboriginals, Brazil, Belarus, Algeria, Chad, Nigeria, South Africa, Kazakstan, Armenia, Iran, Iraq, Cyprus, Mexico, Austria, Libya, Greece, Turkey – I could go on. All of these lands have had misery – either dictatorships or huge wars, mass disease or famine; often civil wars and genocide – suffering far worse than in Ireland.
The Irish nationalists of today wish to submerge out nationality in the European Union. What an irony! Yet still be semi-hostile to our neighbour Great Britain. The United Kingdom is our partner in the EU for goodness’ sake. Why be so desperate to be separate from our brothers in Great Britain yet so keen to unite with the people of Latvia and Bulgaria. What are all the striking similarities we have with them?
People often claim that Ireland did not connect with Great Britain willingly. This is not so. We agreed at the Synod of Cashel and the Treaty of Windsor. The Pope told Henry II to bring Roman Catholicism to Ireland. Can a Roman Catholic in conscience oppose the connection then? Irish chiefs time and again acknowledged the English King as the Lord of Ireland. The Tudor policy of surrender and re-grant reinforced this. Some force was used. Ireland was created by war. Which land has not been? The pre-1171 Irish kingdoms were created by war too. People pretend that prior to Strongbow coming to Ireland always was sweetness and light. It is a myth to think of a golden age back then. There was continuous warfare between the several kingdoms. Ireland was hardly united then. It only became properly united under the Stuarts.
The shiring of Ireland was completed about 1610 that gave us our counties which are so important to our identity. Moreover, they are used for Gaelic games. Do not say that at Croke Park though. Do not tell the GAA our borders are an invention of the Crown! Let us think of all the Irishmen who have risen to high positions in Great Britain. Winston Churchill was of Irish descent. Think of the Irish Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom. The Marquis of Landsdowne was an Irishman as was George Canning and the Duke of Wellington. Andrew Bonar Law was an Irishman too. Tony Blair is half Irish and John Major is a quarter Irish. The British royal family is descended from Brian Boru. Princess Sophie is half Irish. Some of the most distinguished British soldiers of all have been Irish. Lord Alanbrooke, Lord Gort, Richard O’Connor, Sir John French (Viscount Ypres), Sir Henry Wilson, the Earl of Cavan, Montgomery of Alamein and Lord Kitchener of Khartoum were all men that Ireland can claim. Yes, Lord Kitchener surely is the most illustrious Kerryman. C S Lewis and Oscar Wilde were lionised in Great Britain as was G B Shaw despite his Anglophobia. Great Britain was even extraordinarily forgiving to Brendan Behan despite his having been an IRA man. Little such magnanimity is extended to militants in the loyalist cause. Irish actors and musicians have been very popular in Great Britain from Richard Harris to Sinead O’Connor – they were proponents of IRA terrorism yet the people of Great Britain forgave them. Honourably anti-IRA was a most talented band: U2.
Until the 1970s it was commonplace for Irishmen – including Catholics and nationalists – to volunteer for the British Armed Forces. This included men from the Republic of Ireland. They could have enlisted in the Irish Defence Forces yet many opted to serve under the Union Flag. The British military can hardly be said to be foreign to Ireland. Over the centuries hundreds of thousands of Irishmen have joined the British military. Many have won awards for gallantry and risen to the highest ranks. The institution in Ireland that best eliminated sectarianism was surely the Crown Forces – the Royal Irish Constabulary, the British Army, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. In these honourable bodies Irishmen of all denominations served happily with very little sectarian animus indeed.
I have read ‘Angela’s Ashes’ by Frank McCourt. In it he recalls returning from the United States to Eire in the 1930s. His father has been in the IRA in the 1919-21 conflict. The father is always asking for a government grant on the basis of this. He is bitterly disappointed with the independent Irish State that he helped to create. Is this what men fought and died for? That is what he asks acrimoniously. One government official tells him the plain truth, ‘We were better off under the English.’ I know this is a work of literature and is not wholly reliable. It is notable that in Limerick McCourt’s Catholic family are deeply suspicious of McCourt’s father. McCourt’s father is from Northern Ireland and is a Catholic The Limerick Roman Catholics surmise that ‘there are Presbyterians in your father’s family.’ His grandmother says that the child has ‘stick up North of Ireland hair.’
My great-grandmother also lived in Limerick City. She too was of the Catholic faith. She used to say, ‘John Bull why did you ever leave us?’
.I remember reading a tome penned by Joseph O’Connor. It was perhaps his work on the world of the Irish male. He recalled that an inescapable feature of the Dublin pub scene was to meet a chap who says, ‘we should beg the English to take us back.’ I do not advocate that exactly, I would not put it in such terms. I am a unionist. One of the reasons that a unionist political party does not exist in the Republic of Ireland is that unionism needs to be two-sided. The United Kingdom must be prepared to readmit us to the Union.
In the mid 1990s the IRA was bombing London. What was the hottest show in town? Riverdance. Arlene Foster is a DUP politician who spoke of Gaelic nationalism being invented in the 19th century. ‘Gaelic’, I thought about that word. Yes, she is right. The nationalist movement cherished Gaelic heritage and denied and/or denigrated all other contributions to Ireland by other peoples. The Gaelic nationalist vision of Ireland is narrow-minded, intolerant and wilfully blind. It is singular. Yes, the Gaels played their part and made a positive contribution to shaping Ireland. Let Erin remember those who came before and after the Gaels. Patrick Pearse spoke of Ireland not merely free but Gaelic as well, not merely Gaelic but free as well. Thereby he underlined his own restricted vision of Irelad, well he had only one good eye! He called Jeremiah O’Donovan Rossa ‘a Gael’. Let us call ourselves Irishmen and embrace all that that is. I am Irish. We are Irish have the blood of the Danes, the Vikings, the Gauls, the Milesians Spanish, the Anglo-Normans, the Welsh, the Scots, the Huguenot French in us. Now we welcome too Poles, Chinamen and Nigerians into our midst. Let us recognise this and celebrate it. Dublin emphasises its Viking heritage. The Vikings came to loot but then did some good. The Welsh and English did not come to loot and they did much good. Let us celebrate our heritage from Great Britain and Great Britain celebrates its Irish heritage. The people of the eastern isle are our kith and kin. We Irishmen are all Britishers. I am Irish and I am British. There is absolutely no contradiction whatsoever in that. I am British precisely because I am Irish. The British Isles forever! Long live British Ireland! God save the Queen!
Calers's Blog 
Right on my man!
Dear Sir,
I am glad we see eye to eye on this. Give me more detail next time please.
Yours sincerely,
Portley.
of course, what other repression lasted several hundred years? the oppression did try to destroy a people. it tried to take away everything those people held dear and replace it with the repressors customs over centuries
of course, what other repression lasted several hundred years? the oppression did noy try to destroy a people. it tried to take away everything those people held dear and replace it with the repressors customs over centuries
I disagree with your statement Mr Mitchell. As you can see I demonstrate how the claim that Ireland was oppressed by England and later by Great Britain is largely a mythos. I agree with you there was no attempt to destroy the people. No, the Government of Ireland under the Crown did not try to take away everything the people held dear. It is true that Catholicism was legally discriminated against from the mid 16th century through to 1829. At times this discrimination was honoured more in the breach than in the observance. Roman Catholicism was the faith of the majority of Irishmen and dear to many of them. As for the Irish language I will admit that the Statute of Kilkenny in the 14th century tried to stop the use of Irish in the Englishry (English settlement zone) but not in the Irishry (area where the Native Irish people and culture flourished). This law was soon a dead letter and was repealed. The Irish language declined dramatically in the 19th century owing to the Famine and the general 19th century trend of minor languages weakening while people began to speak the official language more and more. This was seen in almost every country. The Government did not try to enfeeble the Irish language and indeed encouraged it through the Irish Society in the 18th century and later the Gaelic Society. The Society for the Preservation of the Irish Language founded in 1877 included some government officials. The Gaelic League founded in the 1880s had even unionists among its members. Later it was taken over by republicans and they abused the Gaelic League’s noble purpose in order to serve their own partisan spiteful ends.
At the height of the Union, Gaelic games revived too. So no it is specious to argue that the government of the United Kingdom or before that the royal government of Ireland did anything to smother Irish identity.
If you are looking for repression I think that is the use of military force to prevent the government being overthrown.
I’m American and you seem to justify the English enslavement of the Irish like we justify the enslavement of blacks and natives. Justifying genocide by claiming you helped the “savages” become modernized is a disgusting and ignorant excuse. Try looking at the situation from the other side. I acknowledge your point but it’s as if us Americans can dismiss our genocides by arguing that we did it with good intentions.
Which pave the road to hell.
Dear Mr McGuire,
I welcome your comment. I am glad of comments even if they express views diametrically opposed to my own so long as such sentiments are couched in courteous language.
Patently we do not see eye to eye on this vexed issue. I concur that at least issues should be examined from both sides. This is a good rule to apply to all such situations.
I have certainly looked at Irish History from a nationalist standpoint because I was brought up as a nationalist.
I very strongly object to the use of the word enslavement. It is totally unhistorical. Even using it as a metaphor here is misleading. This is anglophobic, dishonest and casts grave doubt on the validity of your views if you use such offensive language so lightly.
It is true that soldiers of the Confederation of Kilkenny who were taken prisoner by Cromwell’s men were sometimes made into slaves and sent to work in the West Indies. The men suffered terribly and many died on the voyage. That is the only example I know of Englishmen enslaving Irishmen.
Why do you say #we’ justify the enslavement of the blacks? By your language it strikes me that you despise slavery as I do. Slavery is evil and cruel. I do not stand for such oppression. You personally do not defend slavery. Obviously many white Americans did support it but surely no one defends it now not even the KKK. I do not single out the US for execration. Every land had slavery at some point – in some cases much more recently than the USA. Ireland had slavery too until it was abolished by the Lord of Ireland – the man who was also the King of England.
Of course I do not justify genocide. There never was any genocide in Ireland committed by Englishmen or people of any other nationality.
You may be alluding to the Famine. You should read my history posts on this. The Famine was a tragedy on a vast scale. I do not belittle the horrific scale of this lamentable suffering. To call this genocide though is very wrong and does nothing to honour the victims of this ghastly chapter in our history.
You do know they ship tons of Irish food to England in this tine while people strave just a little point Mary
I know that food was transported from Ireland to England as well as from England to Ireland. I do not know whether more food was being imported or exported. I have read conflicting accounts on this. Food leaving Ireland was not being purloined.. It was sold. Furthermore, we had food coming to Ireland from other countries. There were other free sources of nutrition in Ireland such as fish, seaweed, slugs, snails and berries. Much of this is not desirable but if it is a matter of life or death then eat anything.
Hi. Just came across this fascinating site. One point, Malachy McCourt, Senior, was actually a Protestant despite his IRA activities and — forgive me — Catholic-sounding name. The McCourt brothers’ mother, Angela, was a Catholic and apparently her family was none too happy about her marriage to the Ulster Protestant McCourt. Yours.
Robert, Thank you for your incisive comment. I am not sure that you are correct. This autopbiography has Frank’s mother’s family constantly harping on about the iniquities of his North of Ireland hair. They suspect that there are Presbyterians on the father’s side. But the book very strongly implied that his father was Catholic. His father was eager for Frank to be an altar boy. The father is always reciting the litany in Latin.
OK. I found it hard to believe too. Maybe wherever I picked that up got it wrong. Or perhaps Malachy Sr. was of mixed descent and was (as was almost always the case) raised Catholic.
I am not certain. Read the pertinent passages there and the implication is very strong.
Got it. Happy New Year to all.
Happy New Year
Are you saying that you have discovered that I was correct?
“Got it” meant I understand your point(s). You’re probably right, though. I’ll search online but you have already done that, I presume, so I don’t know if I’ll find anything different.
You spund like you’ve been sucking Jewish arse for too long…. What does D’Israeli’s anus taste like anyway? And now you’ve stsrted to lie like one, go ahead, tell me it wasn’t Jews that financed Cromwell and that it wasn’t the British Navy that forced the Chinese to buy opium from a Jew. Wasn’t the scumbag who forced the Irizh to be Christians an Anglo…? I think zo… He didn’t chase snakes out of Ireland, he let snakes into Ireland. I am of the considered opinion that if it was not for the efforts of Irish soldiers from the United Ststes, you would be speaking German right now, working shoveling shit in the circus and looking fotward to s chance at winning the GENERAL MONTGOMERY TWIT OF THE YEAR AWARD…. Do people still go to England trying to sue people in other countroes for libel and slander because your right to freedom of speech lets you whisper as a train goes by? You did a good job in South Africa too. I look forward to reading your next piece about THE MYTH OF APARTHEID RULE IN SOUTH AFRICA…. Poor Steven Biko… forgot to tie his shoelaces and had a nasty fall, right? Steven Biko, born in GINSBERG TOWNSHIP, SOUTH AFRICA…. not Zulu Township or Bantu Township… Ginsberg Township… Lets hear it fir old Blighty…. God shave the Queen…
Mr Ezra,
Your comment is full of anti-Semitic bile. It is true that Oliver Cromwell readmitted Jews to England for the first time in 350 years and that was a wise and fair thing to do. I have never heard that he was financed by them but you could be right.
I have a fairly high opinion of Disraeli. Your racist filth is nauseating.
Irish-American soldiers certainly did a lot for the Allied cause. Without the USA the United Kingdom might well have lost the First World War and the Second World War. However, in the Second World War it was the Soviets who did the bulk of the fighting.
Apartheid was unfair, idiotic and unworkable. Read my articles on it where I expound my anti-apartheid views. You have calumniated me by suggesting that I claim apartheid did not exist. Apartheid was set up in 1948 by the Afrikaner Nationalist Party which was anti-British. Please get these things straight before you fire off ignorant insults.
Steve Biko was murdered by the SA Police. No one disputes that.
By the way speaking German is not bad. DO you equate Germans with Nazis? If so that is racist.
I am Irish and that is what makes me British.
Racist filth? You are not one of those idiots that think that Jews are a race are you? White Jews in Israel were busted for giving Black Jews birth control without their knowledge or concent…. so even an idiot should know that Jews are not a race. They are a hate group that has called for death to gay men for close to 4000 years and started the idea that black people should be slaves. Please educate yourself on how Jews and Anglos took over the world… a good place to start is with David Sassoon and how he became the richest Jew in the world when the UK forced the Chinese to buy opium from him. JEWISHNESS IS A CHOICE…. if you can’t fault people for choices they make, then there is something wrong…. but I am a Druid atheist and Jewish law is such that they are to kill me…. The TAKEAWAY: ST PATRICK WAS AN ANGLO WORKING FOR JEWS AND THE IRISH ARE STILL OPPRESSED IN THEIR HEADS.
“Tthe Irish problem…. alien religion….” Ben Disraeli
Judaism is a religion and being Jewish can be a matter of faith or it can be an ethnicity. Believing in that religion is a choice you are right. People usually believed in the religion they are brought up in. Yes, Jews have intermarried a lot. There are black Jews of course. We Irish are not oppressed. We are among the very freest.
Being Jewish can be a matter of subscribing to the Judaic Faith or of being part of the ethnicity. I realise that Jews have intermarried. Many Jewish people are of Kazar descent. It is true that the Bible preaches death to gays and Genesis chapter 9 says that black people may be enslaved. These are both abhorrents preachments. No modern Jew believes in such things so far as I know. St Patrick was from what we would now call Wales. There was no such thing as England or the English language then. What is your evidence that Patrick worked for Jews? Even if he did that would not make him bad.
Staggeringly brilliant article! Absolutely exquisitely pin points truths and misconceptions of the De Valera nonesense and anglophobia. Republic should rejoin U.K. We are willing to accept Ireland, I hope that the shinners come to their senses however hard that may be, and accept the invitation
Dear Lim, I am most appreciative of your laudation. Unfortunately many people have a deeply entrenched prejudice against reuniting with our kith and kin in Great Britain. Ireland could be united tomorrow if only people realised tha there is no contradiction between being Irish and being British. I am Irish and that makes me British. Being British is the completion of Irishness and not its negation. Read my novel on this blog; Novel is called “Black and Tans” it about these themes.
I completely agree. Furthermore though I much support the unionists in Ireland it is somewhat counterproductive to deny irishness and solely be British. I know this sounds slightly SDLP however it distances nationalists even more and makes them feel all defensive and yes oppressed! In an interview a member of the audience told Martin Mcguinnes that he’s from another country- he refused of course however I would say that just because you’re from Ulster doesn’t mean you can’t be irish or indeed British. Though a northern Irish identity is helpful, i feel some people; especially the American catholic IRA supporting exclusive st Patrick’s day marchers will not allow anyone from the north to be the non existent myth of being a true Irishman as you ingeniously pointed out. no one could have said it better you and I are Irish that’s what makes us British!
Precisely. I am Irish and like most Irishmen my ancestry is Gaelic, Welsh, English, Norman, Danish and goodness knows what les. We are a melange of those cultures.
The north needs fresh politics, I think UKIP is beneficial as it is unionist but explicitly non sectarian and stands for the whole United Kingdom and has repeated absolute dedication to Northern Ireland. On a different subject I find it outrageous the amount of romanticism of Easter rising ect that apparently is the only way to fight for Ireland and the Ira claim this too. But what’s never mentioned is the legitimate Irish army that fought with the tricolour on their arm FIGHTING THE IRA and actively collaborating with British troops. I am still in awe of the truths this article brings out – it is genius thank you so much i had to dig through a lot of crap to find something non sectarian and xenophobic. True genius!
“Sinn Fein can still be said to be republican even though it does not at the moment advocate terrorism. Despite Fianna Fail’s subtitle (the Republican Party) it is not republican. Yes, it harbours the aspiration for Northern Ireland to be wrested from the UK and to merge into the Irish Republic.” — AND THEN SOME.
The above is absurd and pure nonsense. Sinn Fein is the political wing of the PIRA, which is why no member of that party can ever criticise any authorised PIRA action unless they are allowed to do so by the IRA’s Army Council.
The Army Council is in abeyance and the PIRA has stopped the terrorism, the issue is no longer so flagrant, but if you check the history of the last installment of the Troubles you will see that no SF member ever criticised the PIRA, and even today the party remains an all-Catholic grouping which votes in lockstep on every issue. Yes, Gerry Adams finally condemned the Remembrance Day bombing in Enniskillen, and Declan Kearney made his far more recent and general apology, and I assume they were sincere. However, these do not represent the party in wartime, or I suspect, many more hardline party members.
Many of SF’s members, including elected and/or appointed officials such as MLAs, MPs, and of course TDs. Gerry Kelly, Ian Milne, the late Martin McGuinness are three of the most well-known (but there are scores more, from both sexes).are [former] PIRA volunteers, not to mention spouses, relatives, etc of volunteers..
Yes, it is true that Sinn Fein and the IRA overlapped to large extent. Sometimes Sinn Fein was a mere guise for the IRA; Many people were members of both organisaton.
Lim; You are correct. When the Troubles was still going on in the 90s the Irish Army assisted the British Army by dismantling illegal border crossings. If the British Army went in on the UK side to demolish uch crossings he Irish Army would go in on the Southern side first to ensure that no IRA were there to Attack Her Majesty’s forces.
“I am Irish and I am British. There is absolutely no contradiction whatsoever in that. I am British precisely because I am Irish. The British Isles forever! Long live British Ireland! God save the Queen!”
— Yes these are lovely, beautiful and inclusive sentiments. I wish they represented the majority sentiment in Northern Ireland today. But voting in the last Northern Ireland Assembly indicates otherwise. Daniel O’Connell copperfastened the Catholic nationalist-Protestant Unionist political structure, with a dew exceptions on either side. And the failure of the Young Irelanders and, ultimately, Parnell, to attain Home Rule led to the “Gaelic Revival” of the 1890s, full of ugliness, ruthlessness, tribalism and sectarianism. When Kitty Parnell was called a British prostitute, I do not think any voice come to her defence. The church tasted power and the rest is history as represented by the likes of D.P. Moran, Patrick Pearse, Daniel Mannix, Michael Collins George Gavan Duffy, John Costello, Cathal Brugha, and many, many others. Sinn Fein, in its very DNA, incorporates a de facto sectarianism and intolerance, its self-serving apologetics and denials notwithstanding. Arlene Foster is certainly correct about that.
The Gaelic Revival was going on since the 1870s. It was partly connected to politics but here were apolitical people in it. Dr Hyde believed that the Gaelic League could and should transcend political denominational disagreements. One can be a passionate Gaelgoir a unionist but this is very rare. I am aware that few people are as broad minded as me. For many people such issues are brutally simple. Are you a West Brit? Yerra fuck off so. Brits out§ There are loyalist équivalents to such headbangers. Arethere any Catholics in the DUP, Not so far as I know.
“. “Are you a West Brit? Yerra fuck off so. Brits out§ ” — that remains Sinn Fein’s guiding ideology, and it appears to be increasingly rewarded by Catholic in Northern Ireland.
“. “Arethere any Catholics in the DUP, Not so far as I know.” — are there any non-Catholics in Sinn Fein or even the SDLP — no!
There was an SF councillor who was a Protestant and a former RUC officer.
Emphasis on “was”. Billy Leonard’s wife and kids are Catholics/republicans, and he may be Catholic too by now. In any even, he left SF. That’s pretty sad, slim pickings. Nothing else?
Not so fa as I know. There were some Protestants in SF décades ago.
I think that the DUP are making it difficult to support them with there identity as being really super British and stubbornly Protestant and religion has influenced their policies on gay marriage ect. This works for hardliners however they don’t seem interested in swaying opinions and votes from nationalists or to an extent catholics. Furthermore, with the deal with May, protesters in the rest of Britian despise them for there somewhat extreme policies. The DUP should really grow up I mean who gives a damn about whether or not “Pete marries Paul” how on earth is it going to affect them? THe DUP and unionism need support and, as we have seen before, they care more about preserving stupid religious policies rather than widely helping unionism. I want to support the DUP and I want support for them and them to be the face of unionism, but they should let us in Britian support them by not making it so bloody controversial.
The DUP have attitudes that are fairly Victorian. The DUP will only vote on issues that affect the entire United Kingdom or on Northern Ireland only. I believe that have no conrol over issues that are internal to Scotland , Wales or England. It is true that progressive people tend to find DUP views to be unpalatable. As for being pro Life; there is a honourable tradition of that in all parties.
I read your article and was quite impressed by the detail and just how comprehensive it is in dealing with the issues within Anglo-Irish history.
However I think that nowadays the rhetoric, the myths and sheer sensationalism have proven to be a much stronger force than the comparatively bland truth and it’s because of this that irrespective of whether you are correct you’ll always be perceived as being wrong by a majority of people.
I personally used to be extremely passionate about history but then I saw how others have perverted it for political and social reasons and have tried to wash me hands of it. For me history is about getting to the honest unabridged and even bland truth of the story rather than finding some inane cause.
Still its nice to see an honest person write about history. Keep up the good work
Dear Exist, I am grateful to you for your complimentary remarks. I strive to write a value free history. Perhaps I lapse. I have opinions and goals. I wish to see us leave the EU and rejoin the United Kingdom.
one of the biggest load of utter gibberish ive ever read ,you would be laughed at by any serious historian ive not seen attempts of perversion of history like this in decades ,your views are nothing short of propaganda created to support your loyalist views .The only one perverting history is you .
You have shown yourself to be half-educated with your inability to write with proper punctuation. You do not appear to be the least bit informed. As my hundreds of thousand of words on Irish History on this blog prove I am extraordinarily well read on the subject.
Deep seated prejudice such as you have is no substitute for knowledge.
I am not a loyalist in the modern sense. Furthermore, I often excoriate modern loyalism.
My views are by no means propaganda. Draw my attention to a single falsehood in that article. I am not even very selective. I go out of my way to examine the Famine and 30 January 1972.
I am a fair-minded and dispassionate historian. I also have an opinion. I acknowledge lacunae in the cast that I advance.
Lol you’re something alright but not a historian thats for sure, you claim to be none bias but clearly show loyalist tendencies and try to fit your ideology around your perverted poor understanding of history ,not only do you not understand what you’re talking about your trump like malapropism should not be laughed at but pitied .ironically you criticize my grammar but make numerous spelling mistakes and dont use any spaces in your rantings making it one big long messy unreadable wall .
as regards to your wall of text making as many arguments as possible regardless of their validity does not an argument make . you’re indeed a loyalist and very uneducated and ill informed on basic irish history your claims are utter propaganda .
you claim historians are bias towards some narrative of history and you are unbiased and fair but clearly show this is not the case by your vulgar inaccurate loyalist statements.
the reason you & your kin are not taking seriously is because you dont have the slightest idea what you’re talking about and you try to fit your ideology into history were it doesnt belong , real historians and giants of irish history will never take you seriously not because they are bias but because you’re bias .
You are confusing ”none” with ”non”. You ought to learn to punctuate.
Yes, I have opinions and I am open about those. Too many history books claim to be neutral but in fact have a nationalist slant. There is an honourable tradition of constitutional nationalism. However, if people write a historical book from a nationalist viewpoint they ought to declare their interest.
Kin? This means relatives.
I most certainly know what I am talking about. I am very well clued up and I have researched in a few archives in Ireland.
I am not a loyalist. I recognise that loyalism can be rebarbative and loyalist terrorism was ghastly and bears much responsibility for the Troubles.
You are taking me extremely seriously by arguing with me so much. Thanks! What flattery. My opinions are clearly worth disputing.
To many history books are unbais you want them to warp around your ideology , please dont be hypothetical learn to write with proper grammar if you’re going to insult someone else’s .
yes kin, you’re related to them by blood or ideology .
you most differently do not know what you’re talking about .
you’re not a loyalist ? you most certainly are a loyalist by definition .
lm not taking you seriously your opinions are not worth disputing they are so monstrously wrong that they are dangerous ,which is why im even bothering conversing with you ,its ultimately a waste of time .
”You most differently do not know”. I think you mean ‘definitely.’
How am I dangerous? I might persuade some people? I would like to see the Republic dissolved and us rejoining the United Kingdom. However, I acknowledge that it is highly improbable that this shall occur in the foreseeable future.
If we were to be readmitted to the UK we would be happier, safer and united. There is no contradiction between being British and being Irish.
You have been wasting your time as you say. What does that indicate about your intelligence?
I apologise for my typing mistakes.
You can keep stating the same-thing over and over it wont increase the validity of your arguments however 🙂 you’re also hypocritical for pointing out my typos in my comments and grammatical errors yet completely ignore when you make them your self . im more interested in discussing facts and informative discussions which you have not giving yet .
your comments are just simply vulgar sorry theres no other word for it that fits it so perfectly .
you’re dangerous because you spew uninformative gibberish to those already indoctrinated into your ideology further brainwashing them , no one with any understanding of the subjects would take you seriously however .
We would be better off and happier ? and your evidence for this is what exactly ? history proves you wrong it seems, last time the republic of ireland was part of the uk 2 million irish people died or were displaced the population of Dublin was around 300,000 its 1,345,402 now of 2018 .ireland was akin to a third world country as part of the uk which the only aspiration people could hope for was paving roads with tarmac to be able to eat,the education system was nonexistent .
it is contradictory in the sense that you are not british as you’re not from britian , you are ether irish or british you cannot be both , british is an ethnicity and a nationality neither of which the irish are part of , thus you will never be british and no amount of mental gymnastics will change this .
from what ive gathered from your comments you lack even basic intelligence of a toddler your style of debating reminds me of Donald trump .im happy to waste my time you’re worth really !if just for the laugh ,more so im laughing at you more than anything .
Donald Trump is ill informed and inarticulate. He is the polar opposite of me.
Our population was smaller when we were in the UK? Your contention is dead wrong. It peaked before the Famine. We were not as wealthy as GB when we were in the Union and so it was for 90 years after Partition. We lagged behind GB due to the lower fertility of our land and our lack of coal.
We, the Irish, are one of the British peoples. You use mental gymnastics when you acknowledge our cultural affinity for the mainlanders and our GB stock yet pretend that we are not Brits.
I am British in a modern way – I embrace the British Isles in its mutli-ethnic and multi-religious present. I do not care for King Billy. James II was better in some regards.
its utterly laughable but also scary reading these comments and your own insane wall of text rant with zero objective reasoning in it . you’re truly mentally ill.
Dear ELK, Your comment is foolish and self-defeating. You did not begin a sentence with a capital letter. You left a space before a full stop. You use psychiatric terminology for ad hominen. You demonstrate that you lack objective reasoning. You have not attempted to engage with the substance of my narrative. This proves that you cannot do anything to undermine the flawless logic of my argument. Ireland is British.
flawless logic ? oh lord you’re more delusional then l thought ,Not only is lreland not british but you’re not british not by nationality or geography or ethnicity , this is something you will have to come to terms with your self . really the only true irish from a historical perceptive are the Gaels but of course being born in the geographical location of ireland also qualifies ,you’re right about one thing the centuries of british oppression agasnt the irish people has caused resentment and tension between british emigrants in ireland and the irish, futher attempts and colonization by the british ie. the plantations of ulster has made things worse .
you have every right to celebrate your british- ancestry just like someone of irish nationality with a Chinese or African or polish background , but the difference is they arent cultural imperialists .
you’re very obviously a troll how can anyone take you seriously when you end your rant with god save the queen , you confuse a disputed archipelago term with a nationality and a culture .
l will not bother addressing your “”arguments”””as it would be a waste of time and if l was going to write up a easy debunk l wouldn’t bother doing it on your page .
there was a time when your kin were taking seriously in academia but through the process of critical thinking and scrutiny that is not the case anymore ,as is common with ideologies they often end up with no credibility as they rely on a none objective view of things .
The period in which your kin dominated in writing “:”history”” are those who collectively came to be known as ‘revisionists.’ What they did was, in some cases, take every traditional Irish belief & fact concerning British Colonialists and turn them upside down,” “The British and Britain’s supporters were not to be seen as oppressors. They were now to be considered those of great heroic deeds and the irish as dumb apes who caused it all on themselves as the brits only did what was right and infact the irish had it better off then even those of royalty !
This applies to alot of Irish history, but even recent history as well,its utter nonsense .when you strip back the biases you have a history of invaders from britian who colonised and oppressed the irish for centuries and tried to kill off the irish people and impose their brutishness on those said people Ireland was after all a conquered country. this is undeniable .
in regards to the irish famine and much of the misinformation you posted ,the irish famine was caused ultimately by the british government the reliance on the potato crop was the fault of those in britian due to the land acquisition, absentee landlords, and the Corn Laws ect, of course the famine mostly never affected what is now northern ireland which remained in mostly tranquility due to the lack of these laws .the british were turning ireland into a gaint factory farm of sorts striping ireland of its natural resources and life stock to feed their population and to grow ,there was just one problem and that was they needed workers ,the irish to harvest the irish produce for Britannia growing population , the problem is the irish require food obviously and the poor land the irish were displaced on by the british it isnt going to yeild much ,the british introduced the potato crop as a means to feed the irish just enough so they could be sustained and keep harvesting food from Eire for britian .im sure you know all of this already .
The irish would be sustained on this crop and live in horrible squealer in what later would be described as -famine villages- ,small stone houses built with muck and manure ,while they harvested food for britian for the british absentee landlords which could have been your ancestors ,the ascendancy class would rack in the profit even those common people in britian benefited greatly from irish starvation and poverty .
you claim that more food was arriving in ireland than leaving this is false but at any rate alot of this food was being exported to the north east , however you also purposely hid the fact that more food was also being exported during this time than any other ,and that the food being imported into ireland was not the same quality being exported to britian ,most of the exported food out of ireland was beef pork ect a fleet of 4,000 vessels were exporting food out of ireland to feed britian while the irish starved to death at the height of the irish famine ,,the stuff being exported into ireland was cheap dity uneatable corn and wheat.why continue to export all the food out of ireland when millions are dying of starvation ?
you’re confusing so called small Charity efforts which in most cases were in acted for propaganda sake to make the british look less villainess ,no actual Charity was giving by the british government some protestant soup kitchens were also opened for those who converted to Protestantism and of course work houses .if the british wanted to stop the mass death of millions of irish they could have put a ban on exporting all the food out of ireland but they didnt as they saw an opportunity to clear irelands land of the irish on top of their greed .
as charles trevelyan writes- the famine was an “effective mechanism for reducing surplus population” as well as “the judgement of God” “The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people. this quasi-genocidal anti-Irish racial sentiment was not uncommon for the time .
The cause of the great hunger was both a deliberate percussion of the irish ethnicity through crippling laws and neglect based in bigotry and greed by the british ..
I cannot be troll on my own blog.
We are part of the British Archipelago. Almost all of us have ancestors from GB and many people there have Irish stock.
We have a common culture. Yes, in Ireland there are a very few distinct features to our culture. As for ethnicity – look at our surnames. Not that many of them are Gaelic.
China is culturally imperialist which need not be a bad thing. She promotes her culture abroad. She has had vassal states.
Yes, there were hibernophobic people during the Famine.
There are British people who are bigoted and greedy as you say and there were back in the 1840. That was not all of them or even most probably. You denounce bigotry and then preach it yourself by spreading anti- British bile.
Many of us were saved by food sent by the UK Government. It was insufficient.
You can certainly be a troll and you most certainly are and if you arent a troll you’re extremely dim witted , a term which is disputed and Britan is located in the irish sea so is the isle of man does that make the british, irish ? understand these are geographical terms nothing more .you’re not and never will be british, get over it.
Ancestral connections between countries is not a good argument its infact preposterous, many people in GB and the uk have ancestral ties and vice versa with france as an example .
the majority of the surnames in ireland are Q celtic in origin . you seriously cannot be that uneducated about a place you supposedly live in .
what exactly have l said that was digitory or bigoted towards the british ?
saving that wouldn’t be needed if the british didnt cause the famine in the first place . native Americans probably sent more food to ireland as aid .
Is Great Britain Irish? Yes, it is partly. That was not the answer that you were hoping for. Irish nationalists even stood for election under that label in GB and sometimes won.
The Famine was a natural disaster. Parliament voted relief and it is true the food sent and the work created was insufficient. There was a Famine in GB at the time too. Famines were common in bygone centuries. In the 1740s there was also a famine in Ireland. As we were part in the UK at the time this one is almost never be mentioned. Would the 18th century Famine be an example of suicide? That is your reasoning.
Yes, Native Americans and Turks sent us food which was of course commendable.
Take a random sample of surnames in Ireland. Many are Q Celtic. P Celtic ones have been erased. There are Norman, English, Welsh, Scots, French, German and Dutch ones besides the immigrants of the last 30 years.
My argument about ancestry is not remotely ludicrous. WHy are you Irish? Could it be due to ancestry as well as birthplace? Maybe you do not care about your family.
It is accurate to say many people in GB have kinship links to France. Yes, GB is a bit French in that regard. Parts of GB were united with France for a long while.
Famines are mostly always caused by humans lve already explained to you the causation of the famine which is historically accepted .
The proximate cause of famine was potato blight,this is correct .which ravaged potato crops throughout Europe during the 1840s. However, the impact in Ireland was disproportionate, as one third of the population was dependent on the potato crop due to the British laws forced on the Irish, such as land acquisition, absentee landlords, and the Corn Laws caused the Irish to become dependent on the potato crop introduced into Ireland by the British as a cheap way to feed the Irish and export all the good food out of Ireland to feed the British population at market .
if the british had not conquered and oppressed Ireland with an iron fist the famine would not have happened .
the exact and ultimate cause of the famine was the british oppression of the irish.
what is more likely is P celtic never existed in Ireland at least not in any meaningful way .
the majority of the surnames in ireland are Gaelic heck even the most common surname in ireland is Murphy.
your arguments are just silly they really only make sense to you as you have created a bizarro logic in your head to justify your ideology .
Potatoes helped us hugely increase our population after they were introduced. If our friends and relatives in GB hated us why send us any food? The Famine caused us to move to GB! If they wanted to exploit us they needed us alive.
We were not oppressed. We were the spoilt child of the British Empire as was said. We were subsidised. We were three times over represented in Parliament. We produced prime ministers.
The British royal family has married Irish Catholics.
You wouldnt happen to be related to ian admanson would you ? irish oppression by the british is a historical undeniable fact it happened for centuries ,you arent british and no amount of mental gymnastics or perversion of history or geography will change that , putting aside the ulster plantations and 17th -18th century imperialism , its time to grow up.
Thank you for your remarks. No, I am not related too Admanson nor have I head of him.
The notion that we were oppressed is an opinion. That cannot be a fact. I am British because I am Irish. The British are not foreign people who came to Ireland. Most people in Ireland are in denial about the fact that we are British by ethnicity and culture. This does not preclude being Irish. The notion that we are significantly different from our kin and friends in Wales, Scotland and England is bogus.
People in Ireland were often badly treated I bygone centuries. That is chiefly because that was the way things were the world over. These were centuries in which people had fewer rights, when penury was widespread and religious equality existed almost nowhere. Many people in Ireland suffered badly at the hands of other Irish people.
There are of course wicked people from Wales, Scotland and England. Not much more so than anywhere else.
I am certainly very mature and well informed. I am fully aware of the Ulster Planations. The descendants of those who came are Irish. Why blame Great Britain of today.
Imperialism can be an incredibly liberating force. It can also be monstrous.
We, the Irish are perhaps the most imperialistic people of all.
You were not oppressed the idea of the irish being oppressed is not an opinion its a historical fact :), many loyalist ex descendants of planters live in la la land and are not to be taken seriously . you’re not british because you’re not from Britain nor is the republic in the uk therefore you’re not british. Ethnicity is defined as the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition. neither of which applies here , the british or English tudors and normans were foreigners as were the british planters of the 17th century from britian they are even defined as such by the irish during this time .
what is british culture ? a mash combination of other cultures including irish ,french . german ,latin ,celtic ect . so if anything its the other way around .
no one said anything about not being similar to other European countries with close
proximity such as britian or the uk, but similarity does not equal the same people .and even these cultural ties such as the english language and british sport ect ,all of which were imposed on the irish people btw , it still doesnt matter as self determination is whats important .
im certain you’re a troll no one can be this contradictory and outrageously flawed and vulgar ..
you’re not british nor will you ever be british similar to how a irish person of polish ancestry in ireland will never be polish born ,get over it and grow up your ideology is nothing but dangerous gibberish rooted in your own insecurities .
-the Irish are perhaps the most imperialistic people of all. – what are you on about >|?
Thank you for your lengthy comment. It is so that most loyalists are descended from 17th century immigrants. People have gone back and forth between Ireland and GB constantly down the millennia.
I am from the British Isles. The original word Pritanike refers to Ireland and GB.
As for us being imperialistic. Consider the evidence. We colonised Scotland, Canada, the USA, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Hong Kong …. need I go on? Anywhere British imperialism we Irish were there. We served in all ranks of the British military. We invaded Scotland in the Dark Ages. Wild Geese Irishmen were I the armies of France, Spain and Austria. We were imperialists with them too.
You wrote about self-determination. It all depends on who the self is. Would you permit self-determination to the people of Northern Ireland?
Sports from GB were not imposed on us. That is an outright lie. When were were obliged to play those sports? Gaelic sports were played too.
I concur that British culture is an amalgam of memes. As you noted we made a valuable contribution to it. We have drawn on influences from GB.
You have no idea of my personality. Trying to cook up a psychological explanation of my views is foolish.
You need to educate yourself. Proper nouns begin with capitals.
The majority of those who are loyalist in Ireland are descended from british planters or colonists from scotland and england or britian in the 16th century this is hardly news . of course and people have been going back between France and britian since britian was populated by humans , are the british french ? your arguments are utterly ridiculous .
its funny that you bring that up ..the word British isles entered the English language and common usage as propaganda in the 14th century .
l think you mean Prettanikē nēsos ? or pretni isles ,The earliest written records of Ireland come from classical Greco-Roman geographers. Ptolemy in his Almagest refers to Ireland as Mikra Brettania (Little Britain), in contrast to the larger island, which he called Megale Brettania (Great Britain).however In his later work, Geography, Ptolemy refers to Ireland as Iouernia and to Great Britain as Albion. These “new” names were likely to have been the local names for the islands at the time. The earlier names, in contrast, were likely to have been coined before direct contact with local peoples was made . its irreverent what they called it any how as the irish did not call ireland any of these terms .
And starbo tought the people of Ierne eat their mothers and fathers and were more savage then the britons .
lve been through this education process with loyalist 100 times who think the term has any legitimacy ,the term was coined by the Greeks who had very little understand of ireland they probably never even visited the island , the term Iouerníā was later used for ireland suggesting the greeks had a better understanding of ireland at this time and the term pretenti isles was a place holder name because of the lack of information , the romans and greeks believed ireland was geographically located off the coast of spain .
that was then this is now, it has no baring on the modern world . and even if we dont put the term under scrutiny and just take it at face value , scotland was at one time called little ireland and ireland was called hibernia should we advocate for calling ireland hibernia now ?
right and britian is irish because its located partly in the irish sea so is the isle of man .
whats more interesting when we look at the subject removing the nonsense of loyalism, is the term Priteni or briton which is rendered in irish as Cruithne or Qritani , the cruithne = Priteni/british which are seen as foreigners to the irish originally and invaders .of course this fact has created a whole catalog of wild unsupported theories by loyalists like your self who simply cannot accept reality that you’re not british and ireland is not british.
shows how little you know .You cannot compare petty raids in the dark ages to 16th century imperialism ?the world was a very different place in those two timelines .
irish colonized canada and U.S.A ? what on earth are you on about? . none of those people were irish that helped the british colonise the planet they were ex british colonists from the plantations of ulster who planted the world over for britian as opposed to ireland . therefore they cannot be called irish imperialists .
Wild geese were not imperialistic they were ex pats who were exiled from ireland by the britsh .
of course when did l say the people of the state-let of northern ireland are not allowed self determination ? they would be more in their right to self determination if they wanted ni to be its own country and controlled from Belfast as opposed to London, the problem is they dont and never have .
british sport and language was imposed on the irish population and gaelic sport and culture was banned this is a historical fact , why are you upset over this factoid over the many other facts stated ?
right so british culture being an amalgamation of other cultures is not contradictory with your other statements ?
l know your type well enough . please learn to spell and use correct grammar if you’re going to criticize others .
you claim almost all of us in Eire have ancestors in britian is is utter nonsense which you pulled out your rectum , there are more people in britian with irish ancestry than the reverse . this means nothing however .
go educate your self on actual history instead of your perverted understanding of it , you’re beyond ignorant and toxic and should not be discussing history if you cant do it with an objective view .you’re not British. get triggered by this all you want it wont change it.
you’re correct that loyalists are vile infact irish loyalists who think they are british killed more innocent civilians during the troubles then any other group . l wouldn’t be surprised if your uncle billy was part of the UVF.
I abominate the UVF. They bear much of the responsibility for starting the Troubles. That was a grossly insulting and ignorant thing to say. The UVF committed many monstrous crimes.
Ireland is British by genetics, by culture, by geography. We are interlinked by history, geography and common sense.
You should Educate your self on how to construct a proper sentence first before criticizing others grammar .
*Wild Geese Irishmen were I the armies of France*
You mean -Wild Geese Irishmen were ^^in^^ the armies of France .
*When “”were were”” obliged to play those sports*
l think you mean – When ^^were^^ ^^we^^ obliged to play those sports?
you seem like a relatively intelligent guy but you do your self no favors by being blinded by your ideology and letting it pervert your understanding of history , join us in the 21st century nd leave the 17th century imperialistic nonsense behind , the british do not care about you or the geographical landmass of Ireland you live on GB would love to be rid of Northern Ireland as its use is long been defunct.
drop your loyalist ideology entirely from your life you seem to have a passion for history l recommend you learn actual history , pick up a history book and look at it objectively and stop with this loyalist nonsense . you maybe triggered by this all you want but the truth must be told you’re not British and never will be British .
I do not subscribe to the loyalist ideology. The UK defended Northern Ireland for decades and subsidise it hugely to this day. This disproves your claim of indifference.
Few people in the Republic of Ireland want Northern Ireland in the short term. There was a poll to this effect on the Ryan Tubridy show.
I am not triggered. I am not remotely angry writing this. I am British and so are you. You ought to accept it. That is the fulfillment of Irishness.
You think I have not read a few history books in my life?
I am very objective. I excoriate loyalist terrorism. I criticise UK government policies. I commend nationalists.
You need to edify yourself by reading my work.
What also would have helped the population of ireland expand would have been leaving the food in ireland that was more sustainable , the population of ireland grew at exactly the sametime as the population of england the population was at one point the same number , it was the famine caused by the british as to why the population in ireland is so small compared to Englands .
as l said the reasoning was exploitation at first ,later it was a matter of looking less like a villain propaganda to keep the hippies against British imperialism off the government’s back and the population of britian catching on . even Stalin didnt want to look like the villian and utilize propaganda .
you clearly are lying to your self and dont believe the nonsense you’re stating . even the poorest of the poor in britian were like royalty compared to the average irish person living in the factory farm of ireland under british rule.
norman and irish intermarrying has no relevancy on the topic and is not an argument for advocating anything .
Your statements show how blinkered you are. Stop the hyperbole. You undermine your case when you say that the poorest pauper in GB lived like royalty in contrast to people in Ireland. This is ludicrous. People in workhouses in GB lived like royalty. G B Shaw – a nationalist – said that the tenant farmers in Ireland lived well compared to slum dwellers in GB.
Irish and Normans intermarrying is very pertinent. When Normans came to England they constituted perhaps 1 per cent of the population. They intermarried. By the time Normans came to Ireland 4 generations in England had passed. Few people were unalloyed Norman.
Yes, the English are partly of French stock. This does not undermine my line of reasoning in the least.
When was our population the same as that of England? England is larger and more fertile. How would we have the same number of people?
The archaeological and recorded evidence shows that the average British person lived vastly better than the average irish person , were the British eating grass and living in villages made of muck while dropping like flies .?no exactly . Shaw never said any such thing you little liar lol , its funny because theres a quote to me that stands out from shaws play -man ,and superman ,
Malone – Me father died of starvation in Ireland in the black 47. Maybe you’ve heard of it.
Violet: replies -The Famine?
Malone: No, the starvation. When a country is full of food, and exporting it, there can be no famine.
the entire of ireland was equivalent of a factory farm slum ten times worse then any of the worst slums in britian .
your idea of the Norman conquest of England is completely inaccurate but even ignoring that ,the normans in ireland contributed very little to irelands generics more so they became more irish then the irish themselves ,previously before this they were very much french norman in culture but when they arrived in ireland they became irish in culture fully assimilated they even spoke irish ,they intermarried with the irish and their generics became engulfed overwhelmingly by irish genetics , they were in every conceivable way irish ,not british,english or even norman .
Norman conquest of england happened only a 100 years before Ireland peanuts in terms of a historical time frame .
Ireland has always been cattle country which sustained its self on beef and dairy before the british invaded ireland ,irish have always been paloe people , the idea of ireland having bad soil is a myth created by the british as propaganda ,The general consensus is that Irish soil quality is good overall. the grass in ireland is more lush then britians you can even see this in the way the butter and milk produced in ireland differs from that of britians ,it is more golden in color while britians is more white due to britians lower beta-carotene levels .british beef is more malnursed and with a unhealthy blue tint and a putrid smell , this is perhaps why the british import so much irish beef . some 70% of Britans beef and veal imports are from ireland .
the population of England and wales in 1840 was around 9 million . the dramatic unbalance in England and Ireland population happened due to the famine caused by the british , britians population sky rocketed during the irish famine while Ireland obviously decreased .
your arguments are hilarious they are nothing more than comedy .
You do not accept that much of our country is bog and stony soil? You just said our land is best for cattle. You acknowledge Ireland is not as good for arable farming as GB on the whole.
I am aware of those lines of Shaw. He also made the observation that I cited.
Working in fields was not as horrid as being down a coal mine or in a noisy, dirty, dangerous and dark factory.
People in GB were a little better off on the whole not ”vastly” better off. Stop your hyperbole.
The very meaning of Ireland -Eire -could be the meaning fertile land .no?
I believe it is derived from ‘west’.
Donald Trump is your twin he even mirrors your style of debating .
our population when we were part of the uk in 1921 was 3,000,000 people when we left the uk are population started to increase in 2011 it was 4,588,252 thats an increase of 46%, you’re cherry picking before the famine an event ultimately caused by the British btw , even still id rather live in Ireland now then the 19th century when the living standards were horrid and akin to Ethiopia .
You’re not British nor is Ireland British , your reasoning makes no sense what so ever and is clearly based on your ideology rather then the facts , what cultural affinity ? what GB stock ? you are not a brit ,get over it .
you’re delusional alright but not British . one of the signs of an unreasonable person with an ideology is when they repeat the same thing over and over again without providing any clear explained logic behind their reasoning , one thinks of religious fanatics as an example which would be a fair comparison to your self and loyalism . your arguments have been debunked .
I am totally anti Trump, Read my blog and watch my you tube channel. Trump is not relevant here.
I have provided a crystal clear explanation of my outlook. You keep denying your own British identity.
By the way loyalists do not call themselves Irish. They say Northern Irish or Ulster as well as British.
Almost everyone in Ireland has ancestry from GB.
I would rather live now now than in the 19th century. Who would not? Technology and science have improved life immeasurably..
Yes, our population has grown in 100 years. The same is true of every country. 1960s was our lowest point for population. That was an era when we were a republic! This disproves your specious argument.
Hard does one deny something you arent? , ive read enough of your gibberish for a life time thank you ,no you haven’t you have argued in a trump style throwing out ridiculous convoluted arguments and inaccurate information while stating stuff which can only be described as insanity or trolling ,-loyalist do not call themselves irish? really ?- ian paisely and edward carson would disagree with you on that one , and your evidence for this ancestry claim is ?
then why do you act like you live in the 19th century ?
1960s population drop was due purely to emigration not starvation unlike when we were in the uk starvation caused by the british and enhanced by neglect. id rather live in ireland in the 1960s then in ireland controlled by the british . your cherry picking argument was already debunked . we would not be better off in the uk as proven by history and common sense .
you’re not british get over it you nut case .
You keep reading my work despite claiming you have had your fill.
I would rather live in the 1960s than the 19th century because technology had moved on.
We had very high emigration due to economic stagnation. Independence was an economic failure for decades. 1990s we got rich due to huge EU subsidies.
We would be better off in the UK. Look at the UK’s GDP versus that of the Republic until the 1990s. We would have had free healthcare and university much sooner.
We were subsidised by GB before independence.
Ireland is British by genetics? so britian is french by genetics theres no genetic difference between Ireland britian and France , by culture,Irelands culture is different then that of britians ,its a mix of Gaelic q celtic ,norman, viking ,and many other cultures , britian is p celtic byrtonic ,norman , roman latin ,germanic anglo saxon and many others ,
by geography? not if you understand anything about geography, no , ireland is not british by geography , We are interlinked by history, but so are many other countries good or bad , what common sense is this ?
We could do DNA tests on everyone. There is some commonality between all these countries. We are all a bit mixed.
Two islands are very close together. It is ridiculous to think that they must have no political connection whatsoever.
Irish nationalists and republicans want to be in the EU. They wish to be united with Bulgaria but not with GB. This is preposterous. Nothing wrong with Bulgaria. But do we have more fraternal links with that land than GB?
-We could do DNA tests on everyone. There is some commonality between all these countries. We are all a bit mixed- this statement alone debunks your arguments , the same argument for close proximity = political ties could be argued with France and britian theres only 20 miles difference between the two , how about britian joining France and being absorbed as french as part of a Franco british union ,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-British_Union , would you be in favor of that ? theres no reason you wouldn’t based on your reasoning before .
links are irrelevant history is just that ,its the past . links are created all the time and become history .
Links are irrelevant? Why argue for a united Ireland then? History is extremely pertinent.
No one in France or the UK wants to unite so far I know. It was mooted in 1956.
Co-operation with kindred countries is a good idea.
Yes, there is shared heritage between nearby countries.
I am not an ethno-nationalist so DNA is only one factor among several. I accept new Irish people such as Irish-Indians or Nigerian-Irish people have as much right as I do to be in Ireland.
I am not in favour of the UK and France uniting. It would not be a terrible idea though. I have a lot of regard for France and used to reside there.
You most certainly do subscribe to the loyalist ideology you cant be that delusional surely , Britian wanted rid of NI in the brexit deal because it was weakening britians leverage but couldn’t create a border in the irish sea due to the DUP propping up mays administration , just shows how little you know ,you truly live in your only little delusional world dont you ? even Ian paisley admitted that britian was close to pulling the plug on ni and handing it over to the republic .
you think a tv show is a legitimate scientific poll ? the majority of the people in the republic of Ireland some 70% want a united Ireland , while some 35% in northern Ireland want a united Ireland in their life time , this is just a few short of a remain vote and a significant amount are undecided .
you’re not British ,get over it . l never sad you were angry l said you were triggered,emotionally hopelessly triggered .
depends on your idea of “”history””not any legitimate history books anyway .
you’re not very objective at all which is clearly shown by your writings .
i’ll stick to reading actual historians who know what they’re talking about thank you 🙂
at this point you are resorting to just throwing as many arguments at me without any care for logic or validity of those arguments , so is it really worth continuing this discussing any further ?
You patently believe it is worth discussing the issue. Thanks for the hits on my blog. You decry loyalism and then agree with Ian Paisley!
I know my political outlook better than you do. Loyalists seldom concern themselves with Irish History prior to 1600. I look at our history all the way back.
To be a loyalist one probably needs to be a Protestant which I am not.
You have not dealt with the salient point – if GB wants to be shot of NI why subsidise it for over 100 years?
Tories want it for many reasons. DUP keep the Tories in office.
If people in NI vote to join RoI then the UK will allow that to happen. That has been London’s policy for a century almost.
Learn to read what l wrote please… ,l said is there any point in discussing this any further when you have lost all credibility ? but then again you had no credibility to start off with , no one who knows anything about the subjects will take you seriously so im happy to give u hits , you are just to be laughed at , when did l say l agree with ian paisley im simply stating what he said ian paisley has no reason to lie on that if anything it would hurt him.
you look at selective half perverted history that suits you and you dont understand it .
you most certainly do not need to be protestant to be a loyalist , what utter ignorant gibberish some of the greatest irish republicans were protestants after all .
this isnt a strong point to make at all ,because NI is part of the uk for now it still provides more benefit jut barely than it costs ,so why not ?, plus the british would look hypocritical if they just got rid of it, though they have attempted twice to drop it when it was a hindrance , ni is the worst part of the uk and one of the worst places to live in europe ,this only debunks your claims of ireland being more prosperous under british rule .
Can you think of Catholic loyalists? I cannot. There are Catholic unionists such as myself.
There are Protestant republicans. Read my work and you will become aware that I am very well versed on this.
NI is not a bad place to live and has net immigration. It is about half way up the UK regions in terms of wealth.
UK policy is if NI wishes to join the Republic then that will be expedited.
l also noticed you deleted some of my comments that debunked and triggered you the most , good to know you cherry pick not only your inaccurate information but also the comments you allow to be displaced that make u look less moronic
you’re not British nor will you ever be a Britisher , your ideology will never be taken seriously in academia.
I did not delete any comments – at least not deliberately. Which comments do you allude to? Please re-post them.
You may justifiably label me many things but not moronic. No fair-minded person n could possibly call someone of my proven intelligence ”a moron.”
It is futile for you to deny my nationality and yours. Identity exists on many levels. I am a Corkonian, a Munsterman, an Irishman, a Briton, a European and a human. There is no conundrum in having a multilayered identity.
I do not believe that an identity can amount to an ideology. I am not mainstream unionist. Nor am I a member of any party in Northern Ireland.
So you’re a, Gael , Briton , European , Irish and whatever else no matter how contradictory it is to suit your ideology and political motivates . how have you proven your intelligence ? your comments disprove your intelligence and demonstrate your lack of intelligence.
you’re not and never will be British ,such is the reality you must come to terms with .
whatever political aspirations you clearly have please keep them to your self and do not try and delve into historical subjects you clearly know nothing about . thank you.
There are people of your outlook who are clever. Opinions are not usually a matter of intelligence. There are exceptions. Reasonable people can arrive at different conclusions based on the same data.
You previously acknowledged that I am well informed. Now you make a specious claim that I know nothing. This blatantly bogus statement casts doubt on your other statements.
Yes, I have demonstrated my intelligence through IQ tests, qualifications and writing.
You’re clearly out of ideas , good night 🙂
You could not be more wrong. I am brimming over with them. Incidentally, I note the unusual name of your internet presence – female superiority. You may well be correct in believing women to be better than males in scholastic attainment at least.
biologically yes , you’re brimming with something alright but not ideas .
Boom, boom
How Do l keep reading your work when ive only read one post ? lol you’re a clear troll .you sound like a religious fanatic.
thats right so you acknowledge the fact we got out of poverty because of the EU .it is ridcluous to suggest we should leave the eu it has been nothing but good to us , only reason you want to is because the uk left ,once again your ideology blinding you .
you mean look at englands, look at northern ireland is particularly a third world drip state-let , that would be Ireland fate if joining the uk .that alone debunks your argument , even the entire of the uk has worse standard of living .
I am not religious at all. Read my articles.
You undermine your case by making ludicrous exaggerations about NI being third world.
compare ni to that of the republic , once again this alone debunks your nonsense .
Sorry I have lost the thread of the conversation. What about NI disproves one of my statements?
you lost more then that l assure you.
”more” than that.
l never claimed you were well informed please quote me on that , never ever did l say that … l said u seem relatively intelligent but even those with some intelligence can be ill informed delusional and blinded by their ideology , that was my point .you’re simply unreasonable .
I concur that highly gifted people can be crackpots.
Can you think of Catholic loyalists? yes you .
NI is not a bad place to live ? consider that NI is far inferior in every-way to the republic and that alone proves it is . ni is even the worst place to live in the uk and one of the worst in europe .
When did l argue for a united ireland? , links are relevant in the context of NI and the republic because prior to the 16th century the entire of Ireland belonged to the irish the british are invaders , but theres many other more important reasons as to why NI should be dissolved . plenty of people in GB and France want to unite more then the republic joining the uk in ROI anyway .
Co-operation with kindred countries . so this logic doesnt extend to Ireland and GB why exactly ?
In fairness, I do not recall you saying that you favour a united Ireland. You tone is very nationalist and perhaps republican. I assumed that you would favour a united Ireland. I do.
Prior to the 16th century we were a lordship connected to England. Our head of state was the Lord of Ireland – same person as King of England. There was an English community on the east coast. The rest of us were Irish speaking.
English, Welsh and Scots can become Irish of course.
My point is that we cannot be disentangled from our neighbours. I dislike categorical attitudes to nationality.
Tell me of some people in GB and France who wish to unite. I never heard of any. The EU was something like that with 28 countries.
This logic of co-operation does extend to the British Isles. But due to our kinship and proximity a full union is preferable.
The english only ever controlled ireland in theory they claimed ownership but any country can claim ownership over another ,thats one thing ,its another to actually control it . islands are often natural borders for countries and the entire island was one people united under a common culture and identity before the ulster plantations . Irish is not really a nationality its more of an ethnicity because ireland unlike England is not truly a political entity as much as a purely geographical one , unless you think those in NI are Irish nationals .of course historical ties can be untangled .
I realise the sea can be a natural border. There are many cases where it is not. Many islands belong to Ireland.
People in NI have the right to Irish citizenship and some of them are Irish nationals.
After Henry II there were times when our head of state – the Lord of Ireland and later King of Ireland and later King of the UK – controlled most and sometimes all of Ireland.
Our parliament had MPs even from the west coast.
Often Gaelic chiefs ruled on behalf of the crown. That is how feudalism functioned! Same as in England or most other countries.
Ethnicity and nationality can overlap.
so What makes the irish and british isles different to that of the relationship between britain and france . l fail to see your logic behind this at all. seems to me you’re not even trying to use mental gymnastic to justify your radical loyalism to a foreign country which is based in 16th century history politics.your laughable attempts to pervert history are also clearly based in politics . also Eire does not mean west that etymology claim has been debunked for decades and was created by british loyalists , Eire means fertile land.
The modern Irish Éire evolved from the Old Irish word Ériu, which was the name of a Gaelic goddess. Ériu is generally believed to have been the matron goddess of Ireland, a goddess of sovereignty, or simply a goddess of the land. The origin of Ériu has been traced to the Proto-Celtic reconstruction *Φīwerjon- (nominative singular Φīwerjū < Pre-Proto-Celtic -jō). This suggests a descent from the Proto-Indo-European reconstruction *piHwerjon-, likely related to the adjectival stem *piHwer- (cf. Sanskrit pīvan, pīvarī and pīvara meaning "fat, full, abounding"). This would suggest a meaning of "abundant land".
This Proto-Celtic form became Īweriū or Īveriū in Proto-Goidelic.It is highly likely that explorers borrowed and modified this term. During his exploration of northwest Europe (circa 320 BC), Pytheas of Massilia called the island Ierne (written Ἰέρνη). In his book Geographia (circa 150 AD), Claudius Ptolemaeus called the island Iouernia (written Ἰουερνία). Based on these historical accounts, the Roman Empire called the island Hibernia.
I read that the name of our country is derived from the word for west.
GB is not foreign to us not is Ireland foreign to them.
some of it is, some of it is very fertile however . He must be referring to after the famine as working in a coal mine is not as bad as starving to death .the majority of irish children were put to work in work houses by the British so they could feed their family .the entire of Ireland was equivalent of the worst slums in GB but far worse than even those .
Yes, it is true some of Ireland is most fertile. However, our country is not so suitable for arable farming due to heavy rainfall. Yes, it is possible to do arable farming in Ireland. Not all of GB is as suited to this sort of farming as some of Ireland is. Ireland is not fantastic for cereal crops. I know we grow barley though. I have never studied agronomy. I do not have any statistics.
Child labour was very prevalent in GB as well. I do not know where it was more common.
What you are excoriating is 19th century capitalism and Malthusian ethics. It was the same the world over.
One of the main reasons – perhaps the principal one – for our population fall was late marriage in the latter half of the 19th century and a large proportion of people who never wed. See my article on it.
so The majority of gbs population was akin to farm yard animals and their children working in work houses to feed their parrents and family members, the majority of the population of ireland was the equivalent of the poorest places in GB but twice as bad .this is due to the british , not really debatable . you’re looking to blame anyone but the real cause the british , you will go to any lengths to cover up the fact even if you have to state nonsense theories .
This depends when you are talking about. In the Middle Ages that would have been right. People lived in abject penury. Death from malnutrition was not uncommon until the 18th century.
It is debatable. Please offer some empirical evidence. You previously suggested that our neighbours lived ”far better” than us.
We had a high life expectancy than GB before we left the UK. This tends to blow out of the water your main contention. We had schools in every parish under Henry VIII whereas England did not.
Our population doubled in the first 40 years of the Union. Does that prove we prospered under the Union?
*read that the name of our country is derived from the word for west.
GB is not foreign to us not is Ireland foreign to them*
well you read wrong its not and what country ? Ireland is not a country its an island .
GB is foreign to us Plantations of ulster aside .in the same way Germany is foreign to Ireland ,the English are after-all Germans .britian is geographically and culturally different than ireland are history is different . they are p celtic byrtonic german french viking people , we are q celtic gaelic french norman vikings .
you cant tell the history of ireland and britian together which is all that really needs to be said , they’re foreigners who through centuries of invasions and oppression of us have become familiar to us .
We have much less in common with Germany than with Ireland. Oddly republicans wanted Germans to invade us in 1916! If that had happened we would have experienced real oppression.
They are not foreigners. Our stock and culture are intermingled.
Yes it is true that Great Britain and Germany have much in common.
Embrace your Britishness and you might be much happier. It seems you have an uptight problem with acknowledging that Ireland is British.
Your evidence for this is ? you’re confusing your bias perverted view of history with reality and true history . Ireland isnt British and you arent British maybe take your own advice and accept that and you will be happier .
My evidence is our language (English), our sports, our pub culture, the ancestry of people in GB, our surnames, our architecture, our cuisine and so forth. We are adored by our friends in GB with pubs in every town.
I definitely am British and delighted to be British. That is a core part of being Irish. There is a false unconsciousness about this. You are riled by this statement of the blatant. This is why you are irate and keep coming out with ad hominem attacks.
English is spoken by half the planet at this point hardly a good argument ,our sport is dominated by Gaelic games .pub culture did not originate in britian its actually probably the opposite way around in that regard . Our cousine is irish .our surnames are 90% irish not british . Adored by irish immigrants maybe and so what ?
okay thats nice for you i’ll stick to just being irish and live in the real world .thanks .
my evaluation of you is accurate you’re mental .
I am unsure where pub culture started. Prove where it started. If it started in Eire it shows how pro Irish people in GB are.
We had a huge advantage in arriving in the USA and elsewhere already literate in English. Schooling for all was very rare in the 1870s yet we had it.
Please show some stats to prove that 90 per cent of our names are Irish. Norman names are not Irish. Brannock is an Irish name but means ”British”. Look at place names like Shelburne – seed of the Britons.
You are not mental and neither am I. I keep to making worthwhile historical arguments. I do not stoop to puerile insults. You are bereft of logical arguments if you are compelled to engage in such tactics.
I am Irish too. There is no contradiction in bring Irish and British.
l cant tell if you’re intentionally a troll or not . you’re funny i’ll give you that.
I am a standup comic but on this topic I am in earnest. Watch my you tube channel george callaghann.
what im stating is fact 90% of the place-names in ireland and surnames are irish . the others are of norman or british origin and are much much later in date .
Shows they did not erase our language or culture! There are Irish words on the Lord Mayor of Belfast’s chain of office. Irish regiments in the UK Army have Irish language mottoes. We are Brits and it is fantastic. Bigots have too often presented Irish and British as inimical tp each other. They are no such thing. I am generous spirited and I am delighted to be an Irish Brit.
You’re clearly not right in the head and are beyond reasoning with, no one with any knowledge of the topics discussed will take you seriously , you’re not british its a simple matter of geography history and cultural differences,even some genetics . im afraid . goodbye .
Yet again you cannot take issue with the substance. History, geography, culture and genetics are all related. The totality of these is nationality. It is all these things that make us British and Irish.
lve also had the dis privilege of glancing at your other blogs the one that l found the most ridiculous was your take on the irish language in agreement with Arlene foster , you have something in-common in that you bought arent historians and do not have the slightest idea what you’re talking about and have a clear agenda .
the irish language and culture is the oldest culture on this island which has been the dominate and only culture for thousands and thousands of years arguable in the bronze age until the 19th century , this pokes you the wrong way because you wish for the culture on this island to be like that of britian and more specifically england which it isn’t and never will be. JP Mallroy describes an irish person as a q celtic speaker or of q celtic origin from the island of ireland and hes right .
you also mention the migrating britons who might have come to this island in small numbers while the bulk went to Brittany , you try and paint this as anyway significant which it wasnt the culture and generic impact of these people on the native irish was nearly zero .you try and claim this makes people in ireland british or more british than those in britian as opposed to Gaelic . it doesn’t and to suggest so its utterly silly .
your understanding of history is laughable and perverted which is why l dont waste my time on you and debunking your blogs . good bye
I do not favour England over Ireland. I do not claim we are anything opposed to Gaelic. We are Gaelic as well as several other things.
The Irish language is written on British passports now.
You do waste your time by posting on my blog more than anyone else. That is another lie of yours. Clearly I make a great deal of sense or you would not be compelled to engage with me.
you’re over a hundred years out of date . Italians should claim britian from 2 millennia ago by your logic .
This is a bogus comparison. We agreed to be linked to England and Wales. He had a joint parliament with them under Edward I and in the 1650s. We are almost all of Welsh, English or Scots stock and they are partly Irish in many cases. We chose to join the UK. It is doubtful that most people wanted to leave in 1918. It is still within living memory.
The Roman Empire was almost entirely by conquest and is over for millennia already as you said. There was much less mixing and no British representation in Rome.
As history does not matter to you presumably you do not want NI?
The act of union was undemocratic . and the british empire has been over for more then a century . we are mostly of irish stock u on the other hand are probably descended from british colonists .
Yes, it was undemocratic because the whole world was undemocratic then. The propertied classes had the vote.
What is Irish? What is British? Irish stock means only those in Ireland before the 17th century? The 12th? The 9th?
no legitimate historian or expert in any field would take you seriously lm surprised im even discussing anything with you ,but at this point you’re just rambling so is there any point in discussing this any further ? you’re not british get over it already .
My arguments are highly persuasive which is why you feel impelled to dispute them. Thank you for flattering me like this. Embrace your Britishness. You and I certainly are British as all Irish people are. You are British and you ought to face the truth and then you would be happy.
What arguments are these ? you havnt presented any you just keep stating the samething over and over again and using mental gymnastics which makes very little sense to justify your reasoning . you may get some ignorant uneducated people to agree with you but no one who knows what they are talking about will . you’re not british sorry face the truth and move on.
I noted that the peoples of the British Isles are mingled around. We have so much in common. These are the core arguments for us being British.
so you want me to embrace a nationality of a foreign country with a different culture and history that has oppressed the irish people and nation and has killed millions ,because you’re most likely descended from British colonists and feel insecure about your ancestry and not being Irish ? am l close to the root of your mental problems ? your attempts to pervert history are laughable .
I am Irish. You deny the irrefutable truth at all. I am very comfortable with being Irish and British.
Virtually everyone in Ireland has some ancestry in GB.
I have no mental problems. You do yourself a disservice by using such language for the purpose of abuse. You are unable to engage with the substance of the argument so you are obliged to resort to ad personam.
British culture is not foreign to us. We live and breathe it every day and we have contributed to it tremendously,
The United Kingdom has killed millions as it has fought many wars. In Ireland we took part in those wars and many of our men volunteered for the Crown Forces – they were never conscripted.
We the Irish took part in evil actions of the empire. This includes the slave trade.
You’re not british and never will be british grow up and educate your self . you mean those from the north east of ireland who are descended from colonists from britian were involved in the slave trade .or do u mean those with questionable irish links who were french from the flight of the wild geese .
I am highly educated. I have an MA and LLB.
We went wherever the British Empire went. We were sailors on ships taking unfortunate kidnap victims from Africa to the American Continent.
There were French-Irishmen too who did this sort of thing.
I most certainly am British like you. The difference is I embrace is. You are Irish and European aren’t you? This is just another layer of your identity.
we arent talking about the middle ages we are comparing the population of ireland and britian under british rule in the 18th and 19th centuries . you’re talking utter gibberish . the entire of ireland was equivalent of a factory farm with the majority of the population living in the worst poverty in europe .the british population lived like kings while the irish were conquered and lived like peasents ,BY COMPARISON .
The British were not foreign people. We were British. This was not a colonial situation. British rule is very misleading. From 1801 we shared a parliament with our cousins and neighbours in GB.
Please substantiate your claim that we had the worst poverty in Europe. We had schooling for all from the 1870s – long before some European countries. Furthermore, we never had serfdom or slavery since we were linked to England.
One reason for population in Ireland was the preventive check. Read my article in Malthus. Many people never wed or wed very late.
The British population lived like kings by comparison. This is the most preposterous hyperbole. The difference between us and them was slight.
You can come up with whatever gibberish you want but the history doesnt lie .
I have not written anything that is gibberish. You are correct history does not lie. That is so long as the annals are history and not something fallacious. We have been part of the British Isles so long as the expression has existed. Ireland has only been fully united when we were connected to England and Wales. We almost all have ancestry from GB. Our leaders of church and state chose to recognise the King of England as the ruler of Ireland. That is the plain truth.
you most certainly have . The term british isles was created and entered usage in the 16th century as propaganda by british nationalists as l have explained to you already . connected politically ,ireland was never united in anything but name as there has been always been a divide between native irish and british in ireland . can you prove that claim ? they most certainly did not . even up until the 17th century the irish fought desperately to shake off the british yoke and the english . such as the nine years war .
The term Britain in ancient Greek goes back to the earliest recorded mention of Ireland.
In the Middle Ages monarchs did not directly control all their land. They did so indirectly through the baronial class. That is what happened in Ireland as in England and elsewhere. Our unity prior to 1171 was largely nominal. We often fought each other than. Many helped the Danes against their fellow Irishmen.
There were some revolts that is true. In some cases this was to become a satrapy of Spain. Philip II of Spain also had the title King of Ireland. By no means everyone in Ireland preferred that. When his men landed in 1588 they were killed by us.
There were insurrections yes as there were in many countries including England. Not all of them were separatist.
In 1641 we were more royalist than the English. Same goes for 1688.
The Wars of the Roses were fought in Ireland too. For long periods no one questioned that we should be connected to England. It was before the era of the nation state.
interesting loyalist mythology you’re stating . Britian is the latin roman and greek name for the island of britian which originally was called albion ireland was called Iérnē, the fact that you think the majority of the irish people accepted english rule or even welcomed it shows how delusional and ignorant you are.
Look at the Treaty of Windsor and Synod of Cashel. There were revolts from time to time. Feudal lords often did this in most countries. This was not usually due to separatism. Our Gaelic chiefs went with the policy of surrender and regrant in the 16th century. They accepted that their titles came form the King of Ireland. As Butt the leader of the Home Rule Party later said ”Ireland has always been a dependency on England.” He wanted a ”Siamese Union.” We are sister nations.
The British are foreigners both historically culturally and geographically speaking .
do you really think anyone is going to take you seriously ? you end your post with god save the queen . you claim winston churchill is of irish ancestry and many others and somehow them as powerful figures in britian proves there was no oppression of the irish , despite the fact that chrcuhill or whoever else you want to pretend has irish ancestry were all born in Britannia and recognize as british not irish . Churchill who btw created the black and tans to murder irish women and children .
Churchill had Irish ancestry. You deny the truth. This demonstrates your rank dishonesty.
You are taking me seriously by engaging with me. We have a common culture with our kith and kin in GB. We are part of the British Isles.
Churchill helped to send men from GB and elsewhere to join the Irish Police in 1920. The RIC needed reinforcements due to the depredations of the IRA. The RIC was there to combat the terrorists. Black and Tans is a pejorative term. The RIC generally behaved very honourably. The RIC was not there to murder anyone. The IRA started this conflict and killed hundreds of civilians. It is true that a very few RIC officers killed civilians.
If we were oppressed we would not have produced prime ministers of the UK even before we were part of it.
Churchill had very little irish ancestry its very questionable . im not addressing your nonsense you simply dont have a clue what you’re talking about and are just blathering nonsense .
Look up his family tree. You are addressing my truth telling so thanks for posting. Keep giving me hits!
Im glad you are so interested in your immigrant heritage similar perhaps to an African or a polish irish citizen ,but please keep your nonsense to your self . irish q celtic Gaelic is the oldest culture on this island going back some 1,800 BC to 19th century and was the only culture on this island. of course later you had other groups who built upon this such as the Norsemen +vikings ,perhaps insignificant small numbers of roman . Romano britons and britons in the 6th century who were all absorbed into Gaelic culture .
really the only britons worth even mentioning ever on this island were the chruthin but they themselves were absorbed into irish culture .
Even you admit the Irish are partly British. We are fully British. We the Irish along with our friends in Wales, Scotland and England are British.
For too long the word British was hijacked by anti-Catholic bigots.
I carry the Tricolour and the Union Flag with pride. I am inclusive and open minded.
You’re confusing history geography culture and genetics with politics and a nationality ,you’re not British and never will be . grow up . you cant be reasoned with and dont know what you’re talking about .bye .blocked .
All these thinks are interrelated. I patently do know what I am talking about. I am exceptionally well informed as my writing demonstrates. It is asinine of you to deny my nationality and your own. Calling me immature for not sharing your view is immature. You opinion on your nationality is not immature – it is your narrow-mindedness and unwillingness to tolerate a contrary viewpoint that is puerile.
!!
nice
You are dead wrong. There were several waves of Celtic immigration and invasion. Were all of the Gaelic? How about the Danes in the 9th century? There were English, Welsh and Normans in the 12th century. They dominated the east coast for centuries. They formed the Pale. No, the Gaels were not the only people.
People who are absorbed also have their culture absorbed by the host people.
oh here we go ,IRA killed very little to no civilians the vast amount of civilian deaths were by Churchill Scottish black and tans the RIC were terrorists in everything but name .just take for example the burning of cork which is apparently where u are located ?
The Burning of Cork by British forces took place on the night of 11–12 December 1920, during the Irish War of Independence. It followed an Irish Republican Army (IRA) ambush of a British Auxiliary patrol in the city, which wounded twelve Auxiliaries, one fatally. In retaliation, the Auxiliaries, Black and Tans and British soldiers looted and burnt numerous buildings in the city centre. Many civilians reported being beaten, shot at, and robbed by British forces. Firefighters testified that British forces hindered their attempts to tackle the blazes through intimidation, cutting their hoses and shooting at them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Cork
what should l suspect from someone who gets their history from Arlene foster lol…
in regards to irish identity ,really the only people who can said to be irish ethnicity are those of q celtic origin from the island of ireland as jp mallroy describes the dentition of an irish person .a person of q celtic origin who lives on the island of ireland .. which has been the oldest and only dominate culture on this island for thousands and thousands some 1,800BC until the 19th century .
I know all about the burning of Patrick Street in Cork. My grandfather lived right by it at the time. Not a single person was killed by those buildings being burnt. I concur that those buildings should not have been burnt. They were burnt by the Auxiliaries.
The RIC was a cross community force. It was there to serve the people and protect us. It was more Catholic than the general population.
The IRA started the conflict. You tell the most flagrant lies. The IRA slew hundreds of civilians. It carried out scores of sectarian murders mainly in the North just like the loyalist terrorists. The IRA killed about 100 so called spies in Cork alone! The IRA burnt hundreds of buildings down.
The so-called Black and Tans were only about 20 per cent Scots.
so really you cant be irish and british as these two things contradict each other from a historical and geographical point of view , unless you’re just referring to your ancestry specifically or the 17th century idea of british which cant really be used today . have a nice day 🙂
I certainly can be both Irish and British. British can refer to the whole of the British Isles. There is no contradiction. My ancestry is quite typical. It could be that I have no ancestors from GB. I would still be British since we the Irish are one of the British peoples. Nowadays we have passports and I hold both like hundreds of thousands of others.
You are very bigoted and bias person.
Dear Alex, You patently disagree with me. Please tell me where you think I am going wrong. I strive to be objective. I acknowledge the truth even when it undermines my case.